[why2025-orga] WHY2025 team:info sweatshop
Boekenwuurm
boekenwuurm at why2025.org
Wed May 14 01:52:05 CEST 2025
Hi all,
Let me start with saying I regret that I did not send the notes from
that meeting (and the ones after) to the mailing list. They are on the
wiki, and with that they are searchable.
Today, before the mailing list exploded :), I was already spending some
time thinking and writing about 'vergaderhygiene' for the orga Jitsi,
cause they are growing in duration, and I want to try to keep them
useful. I will try to send something about that before the next Jitsi.
> > We log a transcript of the meeting on the wiki you can read it
> > whenever you like.
> > > >
> > And we send an invitation to the meeting hours prior with it,
> > including the pad (who is also used as transcript) and for your
> > team to share updates if you cant/do not want to attend.
> > >
> >
> > Having to read through a transcript to (maybe) find relevant
> > >
> > information just isn't efficient use of time. Adding something to
> > the
> > >
> > pad while not being able to attend, is one-way communication, and
> > if
> > >
> > people in the meeting have questions about that, they still have to
> > >
> > contact those teams in other ways.
> > >
Maybe, and maybe is reading the whole meeting notes in depth a bit
much, but skimming what is happening might be useful. Alternatively, we
have to go over all that happened and is relevant to the orga in the
in-person meetings, which have the same problem and will take even more
time. With the additional problem that not all people can access them.
> > We have a lot of people who do not attend the mail list because
> > they see it as an outdated medium and the frequent (in their eyes)
> > pointless discussions.
> > >
> >
> > It's easier to ignore an e-mail (or skim through it) than to ignore
> > an
> > >
> > undetermined amount of time spent on $subject during a meeting. I
> > >
> > would like to know who the people are that refuse to use e-mail
> > >
> > because it's 'outdated', and what they would suggest in its' stead.
> > >
An anthology of solutions to this problem, and the related
communication problems, that are proposed to me since WHY2025 got its
name:
IRC, Discort, Discourse, Mattermost, slack, Signal, telegram, "some
mailinglist that is not mailman and is easier to sign up to",
rocketchat, matrix, "Jitsi's are good enough", "Mumble worked better",
"The wiki is fine", "The wiki doesn't work", "$solution is the
complex/does not work for me/is outdated"
You might notice most of them are in conflict with each other, and not
all are email replacements. There is no clear standout.
** That being said, on the first field day, I announced that each team
should have an email address to be reachable, and that the mailing list
is the primary way for announcements, and that each team should have at
least one person who checks the mailing list. **
> I was not part of orga during the MCH days, and I have no overview
> who
> >
> does or does not receive the orga maillinglist emails. How does PL
> >
> communicate with teams that are not on the mailinglist nor in the
> >
> bi-weekly meetings?
> >
> Having a central way of communication within the entire WHY orga to
> >
> actually organise the organisation should be the bare minimum
> >
> requirement to be part of this all, in my opinion.
> >
I'm not disagreeing with you on that.
Most teams have their own mainlinglist/IRC channel/signal group/
mattermost server/etc where the in-team communication takes place.
Harmonizing this has been... met with resistance. The PL contact is
there and keeps in contact. The shape this takes changes per team and
PL person. For myself, I try to attend all team meetings or speak
regularly with the team lead.
I know that when we were doing the initial investigation on the "do we
want to sell more tickets"-discussion, it was also discussed in the
team meetings that are the most affected, as far as I know.
I'm happy that the rate of teams that have a mail address at the wiki
is almost 100% at this moment:
https://wiki.why2025.org/Team:Projectleiding#Who_is_contact_for_which_teams
so we can reach each other.
Kind regards,
Boekenwuurm / Christel
ps: hope to see some of you at Bitlair tomorrow!
> On Tue, 13 May 2025 at 22:58, Henry Schokkenbroek
> <[henry at ifcat.org](mailto:henry at ifcat.org)> wrote:
> >
> >
> > With 42 teams, this means that we use up an entire workweek of time
> > > >
> >
> > A meeting of about max 2h once every 2 weeks isn't a full work week
> > in my book.
> > > >
> > The meetings themselves are more about providing information to
> > other teams, if discussions go into too much detail we ask them to
> > do it after the meeting.
> > > >
> >
> > to discuss very little of substance
> > > >
> >
> > We already have a longer discussion now on using mail as a medium,
> > as we ever had during an online meeting. So you fail to make your
> > point to me.
> > > >
> >
> > E-mail can be read at any time and should be the way to communicate
> > orga-wide as it is not time-sensitive.
> > > >
> >
> > We log a transcript of the meeting on the wiki you can read it
> > whenever you like.
> > > >
> > And we send an invitation to the meeting hours prior with it,
> > including the pad (who is also used as transcript) and for your
> > team to share updates if you cant/do not want to attend.
> > > >
> >
> > There are people who can not attend the meetings, either due to
> > time constraints, insufficient internet connections, or
> > disabilities. e-mail just works.
> > > >
> >
> > And the same holds true for email.
> > > >
> > We have a lot of people who do not attend the mail list because
> > they see it as an outdated medium and the frequent (in their eyes)
> > pointless discussions.
> > > >
> >
> > How many teams reacted to the "Team:Warehouse is now open!" mail to
> > the list?
> > > >
> > We see that we have very limited reach with the maillist. This is
> > already true since MCH (where we also shared most information
> > during meetings, so this shouldn't be a real surprise).
> > > >
> >
> >
> > Henry Paulissen Schokkenbroek
> > > >
> > T: +31611530564
> > > >
> >
> > On 13/05/2025 22:35, CH23 wrote:
> > > >
> >
> > Hi Robin,
> > > >
> >
> > I can't agree with that reasoning. E-mail can be read at any time
> > and should be the way to communicate orga-wide as it is not time-
> > sensitive.
> > > >
> > The meetings are fine to get a general update from teams, although
> > usually not of interest for my team. With 42 teams, this means that
> > we use up an entire workweek of time to discuss very little of
> > substance. I expect important information to find its' way to me by
> > e-mail.
> > > >
> > I never heard anybody say "this could have been a meeting" when
> > receiving an e-mail, but "this could have been an e-mail" after a
> > one-hour meeting is used a lot.
> > > >
> >
> > There are people who can not attend the meetings, either due to
> > time constraints, insufficient internet connections, or
> > disabilities. e-mail just works.
> > > >
> >
> > Please use the mailing list to communicate important information.
> > > >
> >
> > With kind regards,
> > > >
> > CH23 / Jochem
> > > >
> >
> > On Tue, 13 May 2025 at 19:48, Robin Edgar
> > <[[robinedgar at gmail.com](mailto:robinedgar at gmail.com)](mailto:[robi
> > nedgar at gmail.com](mailto:robinedgar at gmail.com))> wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hi, sorry, but to put it bluntly: What do you think the online
> > meetings are for?
> > > > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 13 May 2025 at 19:46, Sebastian Oort
> > <[[bas at knutselaar.net](mailto:bas at knutselaar.net)](mailto:[bas at knut
> > selaar.net](mailto:bas at knutselaar.net))> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ah so yes it was mentioned in an online meeting.
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > To put it bluntly and in Dutch: Zo werkt dat niet. Je wilt
> > kritieke input vanuit elk team en dan benoem je dat in een online
> > meeting? En NIEMAND denkt er aan om de teams even een mailtje te
> > sturen waar ze op kunnen reageren?
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Nu vraag ik me af: wat voor kritieke vragen hebben we allemaal
> > nog meer gemist?
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ben hier echt niet blij mee.
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bas
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Op 13 mei 2025, om 18:41 heeft Henry Schokkenbroek
> > <[[henry at ifcat.org](mailto:henry at ifcat.org)](mailto:[henry at ifcat.or
> > g](mailto:henry at ifcat.org))> het volgende geschreven:
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > [[https://wiki.why2025.org/Orga_Jitsi_15_Januari_2025](https://wiki
> > .why2025.org/Orga_Jitsi_15_Januari_2025)](https://wiki.why2025.org/
> > Orga_Jitsi_15_Januari_2025](https://wiki.why2025.org/Orga_Jitsi_15_
> > Januari_2025))
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Point 2 of the agenda.
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Henry Paulissen Schokkenbroek
> > > > > >
> > > > T: +31611530564
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 13/05/2025 18:36, Sebastian Oort wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Speaking for my team: we never got that question. At least, we
> > can’t remember and can’t find it in our team e-mailbox.
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bas
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Op 13 mei 2025, om 18:17 heeft Henry Schokkenbroek via Orga
> > <[[orga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:orga at lists.why2025.org)](mailto:[
> > orga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:orga at lists.why2025.org))> het
> > volgende geschreven:
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > We've asked teams a few months ago if they see any scaling
> > issues on going to 4000 visitors, but we also explicitly mentioned
> > that we would postpone that decision to a later moment.
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Probably near the end of this month / beginning of next month,
> > we will come with a final on this (this is a guestimate by myself).
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Henry Paulissen Schokkenbroek
> > > > > >
> > > > T: +31611530564
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 13/05/2025 17:55, Wheeze_NL wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Rob,
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Do I understand that we are not planning on scaling up? I did
> > not consider this until Bas mentioned it.
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Regards, Lennart
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Op ma 12 mei 2025 om 20:30 schreef Rob Verseijden via Orga
> > <[[orga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:orga at lists.why2025.org)](mailto:[
> > orga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:orga at lists.why2025.org))>:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Bas, thank you for asking. :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately, we have had some delays with sorting out and
> > checking the addresses, among other things. Nevertheless, we still
> > love to find our posters hanging on the walls of hackerspaces,
> > hopefully still motivating CfP and other participation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In order to reduce costs, we will personally deliver the
> > materials within The Netherlands, in some regions in Germany (South
> > Germany and Berlin) and (part of) Belgium.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Still, it would be nice to have all materials safely packaged
> > so that they remain neat and tidy, and it’s clear what has been
> > delivered already and what is not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Warm regards, Rob. (team:info)
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Bas Oort schreef op 2025-05-12 05:51:
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Rob, i'd like to ask a question: "why?"
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > We've got 500 tickets left to sell, sending out 200 packages
> > feels "a bit much" at this stage.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Unless the plan is to get another batch of tickets sold
> > (going from 3.5k to 4k), i see little reason to spend all these
> > resources (time, money, materials) at this time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If the plan is to add another batch of tickets, my team (and
> > several other teams!) really need to know *soon*.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Bas
> > > > > > >
> > > > > (Team Waste)
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Op 11 mei 2025 om 23:25 heeft Rob via Orga
> > <[[orga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:orga at lists.why2025.org)](mailto:[
> > orga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:orga at lists.why2025.org))> het
> > volgende geschreven:
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear WHY-minded people. :D
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > WHY2025 will provide posters and stickers to around 200
> > hackerspaces in the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany. To achieve
> > this, 200 tubes need to be labelled and filled with posters, flyers
> > and stickers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This Thursday, 15 May, Team:info is organising a sweatshop to
> > get this done.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Drinks and dinner will be provided.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please let us know about your intend to assist bij adding
> > your name to the list at the Bitlair page mentioned below or with
> > an e-mail to elborro at bitlair dot nl.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > WHY even page:
> > [[https://wiki.why2025.org/Team:Info/sweatshop-2025-05-
> > 15](https://wiki.why2025.org/Team:Info/sweatshop-2025-05-
> > 15)](https://wiki.why2025.org/Team:Info/sweatshop-2025-05-
> > 15](https://wiki.why2025.org/Team:Info/sweatshop-2025-05-15))
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Bitlair event page: [[https://bitlair.nl/Events/2025-05-
> > 15_WHY2025_sweatshop](https://bitlair.nl/Events/2025-05-
> > 15_WHY2025_sweatshop)](https://bitlair.nl/Events/2025-05-
> > 15_WHY2025_sweatshop](https://bitlair.nl/Events/2025-05-
> > 15_WHY2025_sweatshop))
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > > >
> > > > > Vriendelijke groeten/Kind regards, Rob.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > Orga mailing list
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > [[Orga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:Orga at lists.why2025.org)](mailto:[O
> > rga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:Orga at lists.why2025.org))
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > [[https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga](https://lists.wh
> > y2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga)](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman
> > /listinfo/orga](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga))
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > Orga mailing list
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > [[Orga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:Orga at lists.why2025.org)](mailto:[O
> > rga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:Orga at lists.why2025.org))
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > [[https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga](https://lists.wh
> > y2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga)](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman
> > /listinfo/orga](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga))
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > > >
> > > > > Vriendelijke groeten / Kind regards, Rob.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > Orga mailing list
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > [[Orga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:Orga at lists.why2025.org)](mailto:[O
> > rga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:Orga at lists.why2025.org))
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > [[https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga](https://lists.wh
> > y2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga)](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman
> > /listinfo/orga](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga))
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > Orga mailing list
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > [[Orga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:Orga at lists.why2025.org)](mailto:[O
> > rga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:Orga at lists.why2025.org))
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > [[https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga](https://lists.wh
> > y2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga)](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman
> > /listinfo/orga](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga))
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > Orga mailing list
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > [[Orga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:Orga at lists.why2025.org)](mailto:[O
> > rga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:Orga at lists.why2025.org))
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > [[https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga](https://lists.wh
> > y2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga)](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman
> > /listinfo/orga](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga))
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > Orga mailing list
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > [[Orga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:Orga at lists.why2025.org)](mailto:[O
> > rga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:Orga at lists.why2025.org))
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > [[https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga](https://lists.wh
> > y2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga)](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman
> > /listinfo/orga](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga))
> > > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >
> > > Orga mailing list
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> > rga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:Orga at lists.why2025.org))
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> > >
> > [[https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga](https://lists.wh
> > y2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga)](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman
> > /listinfo/orga](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga))
> > > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > Orga mailing list
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> > [[Orga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:Orga at lists.why2025.org)](mailto:[O
> > rga at lists.why2025.org](mailto:Orga at lists.why2025.org))
> > > >
> > [[https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga](https://lists.wh
> > y2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga)](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman
> > /listinfo/orga](https://lists.why2025.org/mailman/listinfo/orga))
> > >
> _______________________________________________
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